Q&A with Dave Tate
For me, I used it to train for wrestling, or to train for football, but then I fell more in love with powerlifting. It got to where I couldn’t wait for the other sports to be over so that I could get back to the gym. So I guess I was just thrown right into the sport at a young age. I loved it.
PN: Not at all?
DT: None. I mean, it was a small club, there were only five or six guys. They were strong, but the thing I remember when I walked in there, seeing these guys lift these weights, they seemed like big weights, you know 600 pound squats or whatever it was. But I just wanted to do it. I wanted to be able to be better than they were, stronger than they were. In my twisted 13 year old mind, I figured, “I’m younger than they are, they’re just a bunch of old guys,” you know? I figured that I should easily be able to beat them, and I strove to do that. So they really didn’t intimidate me, but at the same time, they also embraced me. From the minute I walked in there, they were like, “You’re Dave, right?” “Yeah.” “Skip’s son, right?” “Yeah.” “Play football, right?” “Yeah.” “Do you have any idea what you should be doing in here?” “No fucking idea whatsoever.” [Laughs.] Or they’d say, “Do you read the muscle and fitness magazines?” “Sometimes.” “Well don’t read them anymore.” And I’d be like, “Okay, well what are we doing then?” “We’re squatting.” And they just took me in and showed me how to squat, how to bench, how to deadlift. I’m not going to say I picked up on it quickly, it took a while to really get the form locked in, at least to where we thought it was good at the time. I learned 12 years later with Louie Simmons that it wasn’t that good. But it got me going. I just felt like I belonged.
PN: Do you remember your worst day in the gym?
PN: How about your best day?
DT: It’s tough to say, there are always days where everything seems to click, everything feels right. But the more experience I got in the sport, the more I realized that when those days come around, those are the days to stop and pull back the reins a little. On those days when everything was going, when you’re on fire, when you’re on top of the world, a lot of times I just closed it down. Because that’s a really strong indicator that everything’s going in the direction you want, and there’s nothing you can do to make it better. All you can do is ruin it, you know, by overtraining or overreaching. Or just by taking advantage of it. A lot of people will have a day where, say their best bench is 405 and they’ve got a meet coming up in six weeks, and they just mash 385. I mean, kill it. The natural tendency is to go 415, 425. But the meet isn’t today. So sometimes it’s better to just pull back on the reins and put it in the meet, which is where it’s supposed to be. There were a lot of days like that.
PN: Well even outside the injuries, you talk in your book having a learning disability, but then you’ve gone on to accomplish so much, not only in powerlifting but also as an author, in business, and so on. Do you think that ability to walk to the edge in powerlifting translates to the world outside the gym?
DT: Yeah, I think it does. But it goes beyond that, too. A couple of weeks ago, I was asked what the secret to success is. And the first thing that crossed my mind was, “What the fuck is success to you?” If you think I’m successful, man . . . I don’t. So that may be the first secret, if there is one, that you’re never satisfied. But there are a couple of other things that have helped me over the years. The first is that, well, I know I don’t know anything. While I may think I do from time to time, I don’t. The only thing I really, truly know, is how to test what I’m doing. I know how to quantify it. So be it training, nutrition, business, whatever. I go into everything thinking that I don’t know a fucking thing. Then I start talking to people who claim to know, and I’ll implement what they say. And then I’ll test it. I’ll have indicators I measure to tell me if it’s going in the direction I want, so I can tell if it’s working. And because I don’t know anything, because I don’t allow myself to make intellectual decisions, if those indicators don’t go the way I want them to, I change things! I try to remind myself that I don’t know anything, I try to stay detached enough to view things objectively. If you don’t do that, you’ll never change things, even when they’re not working. You just get stuck in, “It’s gonna work, it’s gonna work, it’s gonna work.” And it’s not.
And in business, everything I’ve ever done, I started by getting in way over my head. I just figured I’d find the people to help me if and when I needed it. And I did. I found advisors, I found mentors, I found consultants. I paid who I had to. I built relationships with who I needed to. And this is key: I don’t take their advice with a “grain of salt.” I don’t pick and choose what to use and what not to, or modify it or whatever. I just listen to them and put it all into play, then I test the outcome. If the outcome is going in the direction I want it to go, we’re good. If not, well, how can I say this politely? “Fuck you. See you later, I’m finding something else to do.” Life’s too short to be banging your head against wall.
A lot of this I’ve learned through the weightroom, most definitely. That’s what strength training is. It doesn’t matter how you lift the weight when the meet comes around, or how you trained to do it, all that matters is whether or not you did it.
But yeah, shit, suck, good, great. I’ll use the example of general fitness. Most people in the United States are shit. I mean, diabetes is on the rise, and . . . well, never mind, everything that could possibly go wrong is going wrong. Diet is definitely a huge problem. And it’s not the only problem. These people aren’t doing anything! They stay indoors, they’re not active, they watch TV, they don’t even walk to their neighbor’s house to talk or maintain any sort of relationship with those around them. If you ask most people who their neighbors are, they don’t even know their names. Everyone is becoming a house rat. Which, by the way, if you’re in the e-commerce industry is not a bad thing. [Laughs.] But that’s kind of what we’ve become. So their fitness is complete shit.
Now if they take the first step, join a gym and so on, well yeah, then they go to suck, because the first step is a big thing. But personally I don’t give a shit about the person who took the first step, I really don’t. [Laughs.] I don’t praise them, and I don’t want to praise them. I know that 99% of people that take that first step are never going to go any further. In fact, they’re probably going to regress. I’m sure you’ve seen this, every trainer or weightlifter in the world has seen it: you’re sitting around the table with some friends and they start asking you about training or nutrition or whatever. First thing that goes through your mind is, “Is this guy really serious, or is he just wasting my time?” because you know it’s going to take more than two minutes to answer the question. So right off the bat you’re trying to gauge if he’s even willing to do what it takes to move past the first step. 99% of the time you’re going to give him the short answer, because you already know it will never go past that. You’ve already spent thousands of conversations laying shit out for people, family members, friends, whoever it is, to have your time just essentially fucking wasted. [Laughs.] Which is what it is! And to make matters worse, they don’t understand that your time is of value, and that it’s what you do for a living. So that’s why I don’t care about those people. You say you’re going to start working out? Great. Your New Year’s resolution is to start working out? Great. I don’t give a shit. In fact, in my business I don’t even target those people. That’s where the biggest market is, by the way, but I don’t want to deal with them.
Now “good.” These people have stuck for a while. They’re actually going to the gym, three or four days a week, for a couple of years. And they’re good. You go in the gym, you’ll find ‘em. Just sit there at five o’clock, during the busy time of any commercial gym. You’re going to see “shit” out the ass. You’re going to see “suck” out the ass. But you’ll also find about five or six “good.” And by “good” in the weight room, what I mean is you’ll see movements that are fluid, that look like they have purpose, they’ll have muscles that are actually contracting, they have control of their body. You could go over and ask them, “Hey, flex your triceps for me,” and they can do it without moving their shoulder or biceps. These people have been doing it for a while, and they’ve got a bit of a passion for it. Those are the people I like. Because those are the people that will take the advice that you give and actually try to use it. Those are the people that you can take from good to great – if they’re willing to put the effort in. But here too, most of these people will just stay at “good,” they won’t be willing to go the distance.
Shit to suck is say 50 or 60 stairs, big stairs. And suck to good, that’s another 50, 60 stairs. I mean, there’s a big difference between the guy who just walked in the gym and says, “I’m gonna do this,” and the guy who actually does it for a few years, and has fluid movements and knows how to control his body. That’s going from a beginner to an intermediate in weight training, and that can be three to five years for some people. More, for others. And a lot of people are content to stay there, and I’m happy with that. I’m cool with that, because for most people, it’s not their life, it’s not their driving passion. It’s just something they really, really love to do. And so that’s where they stay.
Now there is another step: the extraordinary. And that’s a whole other world. That’s only about half a step. Those are the great athletes that step up and those who go out and change the landscape. And obviously, they’re rare. Real rare. It’s not even another step, it’s just a different intellectual level that most people will never, ever get to in anything they ever do in their lives. But we can see it, we can admire it. That’s when you get the goosebumps, the feeling like you’re watching something truly special. That’s the epitome of sport, the epitome of fitness. And it really has nothing to do with fitness, it’s just heart. You can have a Michael Jordan, who makes everybody want to stand up and say, “wow,” and you can have a Special Olympian do the same thing. It’s just heart. It’s a level you can’t teach, you can just observe.
PN: Your book, Under the Bar, was as much about your life as about powerlifting or sport – it was almost a compilation of lessons learned. What compelled you to share those lessons, and your story, with others?
DT: My kids. At the time time that it was written, my health variables weren’t really that good. But my injuries were okay. So I didn’t see “not competing” any time soon. And I’ve been in the sport long enough to know that I’m not that strong, and that the weights that I lifted had a lot to do with mental fortitude and leverage. So I wasn’t going to be competitive if I went down in body weight. And if I’m not competitive, after 20 years, I don’t want to be a part of it. It’s time to step away. So I basically wrote that thinking, my blood pressure’s through the roof, my cholesterol’s through the roof, my enzymes are through the roof – I may not be around that long. And the sick part is that I just accepted that. And I figured, if my kids could just see me compete, then it would be okay, because the greatest lesson I could teach them would be just letting them see me compete. And it took me a long time to realize that this isn’t about me. And when that finally started to come into focus, that’s when I wrote that book. Because who knows what could happen, or when it could happen. Hell, I’m healthy right now, but I could walk out right now and get hit by one of our forklifts. So I wanted to be able to pass on the things that I’ve learned, because nothing for me has been easy. Nothing. And to be honest I don’t think it is for anybody. Some people act like things are easy, and maybe there are a small few who really do have have it easy, but for the vast majority, it’s not that way at all. You’re going to struggle for everything you get. You’re going to have to work for everything you get. So I thought I would write down some of the things I’ve learned, so they’d be able to read it and say, “Here are the values I should build my life around.” They’re the same values I talk about on my website, the same values I built my company around, the same values my employees live by. So that’s how it came about, it wasn’t written to be sold, or even given away, it was written for them. But then a few people read it, and they said, “You have to publish this.” And that’s kind of how it came about.
And when that phase was over, I was so depleted in calories that I freaked. My body went from 257 to 285 in three weeks. Which is actually kinda fun. [Laughs.] I remember an email from John saying something like, “Holy shit, you would have had to have eaten in excess of 5500 calories per day, above your actual daily requirements.” And I just thought, “Yeah, that sounds about right.” [Laughs.] But that was also a lesson learned though, because when I started getting ready for this phase, I thought it wouldn’t be hard to get back to where I was. Boy, that’s a crock of shit. [Laughs.] You can put on 30 pounds of pure fat in three weeks. But it’s not coming back off in three weeks. [Laughs.] It took like 12 weeks! Of serious shit! [Laughs.] So I also learned this time through to not get so extreme in the final few weeks so I don’t freak like that. And I had the Get Unshredded Plan, you know. [Editor's note: The Get Unshredded Plan helps you come out of an extreme, temporary diet without rapidly putting weight back on.] You think I’m going to fucking follow that? [Laughs.] When there’s an end date, and I know there’s caramel apples around the corner? [Laughs.]
But I learned a lot, I do feel good. And the one thing that I really noticed is that before I used to basically fall asleep throughout the day, just have crashes all the time, eating like shit. I just didn’t have the energy. But now I have tons of energy. And even though I do take in carbs, it’s still not more than 150 or 200 grams per day, on a high day. It’s funny because people are saying I’m now on a high carb diet, and I’m thinking, what the fuck do you consider high carb? [Laughs.] Because if you think 150 grams is high carb, you’re out of your mind! I’ll show you high carbs! [Laughs.] So yeah, I do feel better, a lot better.
Strength-wise, I don’t have comparisons, because I don’t do anything that even resembles what I used to do. I don’t squat, I don’t bench, I don’t deadlift. And a lot of times people are shocked to hear that. I explain it this way. I heard Jack Nicklaus say in an interview the other day, someone asked if he was playing a lot of golf now that he’s retired. And he just rolled his eyes. He said, “No, I spend time with my kids.” He said, “I might go out on the golf course a couple times a year, that’s it. I spent my whole life golfing.” Well I spent my whole life squatting, benching and deadlifting. So aside from the fact that my shoulder can’t handle them, I really don’t even have a desire to do them. Plus I know now that if I tried to, my strength would be way off what it was before, because now the focus of my training is completely different.
PN: And what if you were still competing in powerlifting, how important would nutrition be there?
DT: I would tend to say that, at least for the super heavyweights, it’s not important at all. I just know what all the guys at the top of the game do. You tell some super heavyweight to eat vegetables, well that’s fine, but they eat the vegetables, which have a low caloric density, and they end up replacing high calorie foods with low calorie foods. And what works for you in things like bodybuilding, body transformation, fat loss, or whatever, that works against you in super heavyweight powerlifting. Plus, the big guys, they’re taking in 10,000 calories. So if they’re not getting the nutrients they need in 10,000 calories, something’s wrong. I mean even a Ho-Ho has to have vitamins in it somewhere. [Laughs.] The one thing I do tell them is, “Look, I’ve been there. I know you’re not going to eat vegetables unless they’re on your hamburger. But let’s at least put some Greens+ and some fiber caps in there. Let’s do something.” I think that’s the first step with these guys, to supplement what they’re not getting. And it’s a band-aid solution, but I think it’s about as much as you’re going to get out of those guys. Now the lighter guys, they need fucking education. Because these are the guys that will wake up, have a hamburger patty for breakfast, a hamburger patty for lunch, and a hamburger patty for dinner. And not eat anything else all day. Because they’re so afraid that they’re going to gain weight and grow out of their weight class. So they need some serious help to get that metabolism back up. So it’s much more important for the lighter guys.
PN: When you got Precision Nutrition, what were your first thoughts about it?
DT: [Laughing.] My first thought? “Fucking John. Why didn’t he just give me the diet? I don’t want to read this shit, just tell me what to do.” [Laughs.] That was my first thought. But then I started looking through it, and reading it, and I really liked it. What I liked is that it gave me choices. Which is kind of a fun thing, because you have all these meals to choose from, all these different ways to get the food you need. I’m a creature of habit, so no matter what choices you give me, I’m still eating a fucking apple every day. [Laughs.] But I know, and it’s refreshing to know, that when I want the choices, I have them. I’m not stuck eating a certain thing, or eating a certain way. And I like how it’s presented in short chunks, because it’s easier for me to digest the information. That’s where Precision Nutrition stands out. The other cool thing about it is the backup services, the forum, the add-on items that you guys keep posting, I mean it’s much more than even the manuals and the cookbook you get in the mail. I’m a raving fan, I’m all about Precision Nutrition. I recommend it to everybody. It’s not about gaining muscle or losing fat, it’s about all of it. It’s about building the baseline for all of those things, and once you’ve got the baseline, the rest is straightforward. People say, “Dave, you’re not on it right now though.” The hell I’m not! It’s the baseline, and I just make adjustments to the baseline to achieve my goals. That’s it.
PN: Well it looks like it’s working, because it’s grown tremendously.
DT: Man, I’m totally amazed at what I’ve been able to accomplish. I believe the more you give out, the more you get in return. I really, truly believe that. And my life is an example. So I’m huge on contribution, and giving back what I’ve been given. Most of things I’ve learned in my life, whether in training, or business or life in general, were gifts given to me by other people. It was the guys taking the 13 year old and not making him feel intimidated in the gym. It was all these people in my life, stepping up at the right time, and saying, “You know what? You’re not stupid. You’re fucking lazy.” And being there for me, helping to guide me along the right path. So I owe them so much. And every time I walk in to work, or I go home, or I get in my car, or I look at my kids and my wife, it acts as a reminder. It’s like a knife twisting in my back, constantly reminding me: “Pay those guys back. Pay them back, pay them back.” Because without that help, I wouldn’t have anything right now. That’s why the Q&A on the site is for free, that’s why I try to help as many people as I can. I try to express that gratitude every day.
DT: Hey, no problem at all. My pleasure.
